GOKYO - Difference from ikkyo ============================== From: Julian Frost ---------------------------------------------- On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Todd Louis Green wrote: > Well, I was looking through _Dynamic_Sphere_ this evening > and when I got to the description of gokyo, I was a bit > confused. > > I don't know that I've ever seen this technique before. > Both from the description and from the drawings, it looks > exactly like ikkyo. > > What, if any, difference is there between ikkyo and gokyo? Ikkyo is dangerous to do against a knife attack, as the wrist is not immobilized (thus, the knife can slice and dice). Gokkyo is designed *specifically* for knife attacks. It does look like ikkyo, except that the hand that holds the wrist is turned to face "outward". That is, where as in Ikkyo, the thumbs end up pointing towards each other, in gokyo, the thumbs end up pointing in the same direction (away from uke's body). Also the pin for gokyo is different. The "classical" gokyo pin is performed like so: 1) Nage takes uke to the floor, similar to ikkyo, 2) After "bouncing" uke on the floor, nage quickly lifts uke's elbow off the floor, and pushes uke's wrist under his own shoulder, creating what looks like a letter "Z" ===========// <--- Elbow // // // <--- Forearm // // \\ <--- Wrist joint ======= <--- Hand 3) Nage pushes directly down on uke's elbow, which applies pressure on uke's wrist (which is still held by nage's other hand), which forces uke to open his hand. An alternate pin is to finish with uke's arm outstretched (just like ikkyo, but still with the nage's thumbs pointing in the same direction - away from uke's body), then place the heel of one foot on the hand that's holding the knife such that the heel digs into uke's knuckles. It's then possible to "kick" the knife out using the heel. From: "Dean C. Harris" --------------------------------------- At 10:50 PM 10/31/95 -0800, you wrote: Julian, How is that different from Shomenuchi/Tsuki Nikkyo? Sorry for ignorance, but what you describe below is what we use for Shomenuchi Ikkyo, and Nikkyo and many other tanto/knife techniques. Ooops...just looked at my USAF Test Requirements sheet and see Yokomenuchi Gokyo as the 3rd technique for 2nd Kyu requirements. Only "Gokyu" on the whole list. So, perhaps I've just been exposed to Gokyo's pin and not the actual technique...if it's a fairly subtle difference between Shomenuchi Nikkyo with the same pin then I guess I just never actually practiced Gokyu. >thumbs end up pointing in the same direction (away from uke's body). Also >the pin for gokyo is different. The "classical" gokyo pin is performed >like so: > >1) Nage takes uke to the floor, similar to ikkyo, >2) After "bouncing" uke on the floor, nage quickly lifts uke's elbow off >the floor, and pushes uke's wrist under his own shoulder, creating what >looks like a letter "Z" > >===========// <--- Elbow > // > // > // <--- Forearm > // > // > \\ <--- Wrist joint > ======= <--- Hand > From: "ROBERT D. FRANKOVICH" ------------------------------------------------------- Todd, If you are not overwhelmed with responses to your question "What is Gokyo?", here's mine. Gokyo, simply, is the same as Ikkyo but the hand contacting uke's striking wrist is set so that the thumb side is pointed up. This has both of nage's hands with the thumb side up, unlike Ikkyo were the upper hand is thumb side down. ikkyo has the hands making contact in the same relative position as when you hold them out in front of you (thumbs together). From: Neil McKellar ------------------------------------------ Julian wrote: > An alternate pin is to finish with uke's arm outstretched (just like > ikkyo, but still with the nage's thumbs pointing in the same direction - > away from uke's body), then place the heel of one foot on the hand that's > holding the knife such that the heel digs into uke's knuckles. It's then > possible to "kick" the knife out using the heel. Hmm...I remember seeing Saito Sensei demonstrate gokyo on a video where he did this. Except that I think he placed the arm in the Z-like pin we're used to seeing for this and simply kicked the knife away. I'll have to go back and see. And based on how fast he was able to kick from kneeling without hardly even rising, I sure wouldn't want Saito Sensei to kick at me. :-) From: Lee Escobar ---------------------------------------------- Look closely because I don't think Julian's "kick" is what you may be thinking of...I would describe the sensation as have your hand peeled open by nage's heel. It's very convicing, and I have yet to keep a hold on the tanto.... Back to Julian's post....is it really an "alternative" or a difference in finishing gokyo omote or ura? From: Julian Frost ---------------------------------------------- On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, Dean C. Harris wrote: > At 10:50 PM 10/31/95 -0800, you wrote: > How is that different from Shomenuchi/Tsuki Nikkyo? Sorry for ignorance, > but what you describe below is what we use for Shomenuchi Ikkyo, and Nikkyo > and many other tanto/knife techniques. The pin for Nikyo (as practised at our dojo) is with uke lying face down on the mat, with his arm bent behind him. Nage sits at his side, and cradles uke's arm in his own arm. By leaning towards uke's head, and twisting the hips, nage is able to gain a submission by torquing uke's shoulder joint. > Ooops...just looked at my USAF Test Requirements sheet and see Yokomenuchi > Gokyo as the 3rd technique for 2nd Kyu requirements. Only "Gokyu" on the > whole list. So, perhaps I've just been exposed to Gokyo's pin and not the > actual technique...if it's a fairly subtle difference between Shomenuchi > Nikkyo with the same pin then I guess I just never actually practiced Gokyu. The application of Nikyo and Gokyo are comletely different, that's why they have different names! :-) The grip on uke's wrist is different -- like I said, nage's thumbs point in the same direction, away from uke's body. Until the final pin, uke's wrist is kept straight and immobilized by a strong grip around the base of the hand (palm to inside of wrist), it is not bent like it is for nikyo. From: Jon Pardue ------------------------------------------- On Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:56:36 CST ROBERT D. FRANKOVICH wrote: >Gokyo, simply, is the same as Ikkyo but the hand contacting uke's >striking wrist is set so that the thumb side is pointed up. This >has both of nage's hands with the thumb side up, unlike Ikkyo >were the upper hand is thumb side down. ikkyo has the hands >making contact in the same relative position as when you hold >them out in front of you (thumbs together). > >Hope it helps. Am I correct in visualizing the gokyo grip like this? Uke grabs the front of nage's gi with his right hand as they face each other. Nage uses his right hand to reach over and around uke's wrist, grabbing it and rotating it clockwise. Is that right? Or is that just a nikkyo lock? I suppose I should just wait until class and ask sensei... Boy, I can't wait 'til we get desktop video around here. :-) - Jon From: Ned Danieley --------------------------------------------------- in addition to using gokyo in tantotori, we also have it as a formal technique against katatori. for us (AAA), this is about the only time we do any technique that goes *against* the elbow joint. we start out like ikkyo irimi, but only cut uke's arm a little bit forward; then we step in and place the other arm over uke's arm, and apply pressure directly against the joint (and against the wrist at the same time). done properly, this results in uke dropping almost straight down to avoid the pressure, and doesn't cause any damage. my original instructor had always emphasized not to do counter-joint techniques, so I was a bit confused the first time I saw Toyoda sensei do this. fortunately, he was willing to demonstrate it on me so I would understand. :-) so I teach that the main difference between ikkyo and gokyo is the direction of pressure against the elbow. From: Jeff Frane ... > >Back to Julian's post....is it really an "alternative" or a difference in >finishing gokyo omote or ura? > Actually, the way we are taught this -- and I think Julian will agree -- there isn't an omote version (at least with a tanto) because the movement brings the tip of the tanto into nage's body. The pin is an alternative way of disarming uke. From: Neil McKellar -------------------------------------------- Ned writes: > we start out > like ikkyo irimi, but only cut uke's arm a little bit forward; then > we step in and place the other arm over uke's arm, and apply pressure > directly against the joint (and against the wrist at the same time). > done properly, this results in uke dropping almost straight down to > avoid the pressure, and doesn't cause any damage. This sounds like a description of rokkyo (sp?) or hiji gatame (sp?). Hmm...where's my vocab list... From: "ROBERT D. FRANKOVICH" ------------------------------------------------------ Jon: I'm sorry. I didn't amke it clear that we do this technique in response to a shomenuchi strike rather than doing ikkyo, especially defending against a tanto. RFrankov(ich)@wpo.uwsuper.edu