************************************************************************* BOWING ************************************************************************* CONTENTS ========= 1. Bowing - where to look 2. ALternative bowing ************************************************************************* BOWING- WHERE TO LOOK ===================== On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Rick Clark wrote: --------------------------------------- > Andrew Francis - af@epix.net --------------------------------- > I have a question concerning the positon of your eyes when you rei. I > normally look at but not directly into the eyes of the person across > from me, when I rei. This allows me to keep track of the entire body > of the individual. > > In weapons class a student asked me if that was also true concerning > sword technique and etiquette. He said he tought the Samurai and or > Japanese custom was to look at the floor, not at the person. > > Hmmm? > > Can you enlighten me? 1) when it concerns sword and rei. 2) Japanese > custom today, in day to day greetings and more specifically has the > custom changed along the way? I ahve always been taught that you drop your eyes. It shows a lack of respect and trust to look up. I think the idea that you look up when you bow came from the old Bruce Lee movies. From pam Wed Sep 13 10:06:29 1995 ----------------------------------- Re. where to look when rei'ing (anglasised japanese again!) I seem to remember someone saying that traditionally: If the person is your sempai/someone you respect and trust then you are humble + respectful and look down at the floor, in effect saying that y'ou are my master' If it is someone you dont know/dont trust then keep your attention on them /their movement but not looking directly at them FOr example in a kneeling bow you shuld bow til your back is straight but you should always be able to see their hands and particualarly their sword hand. If you look directly into their eyes then you are issuing a challange. From: doug johnson --------------------------------------------- I originally learned to keep my eyes on whomever I am bowing to from a very traditional Okinawan style of Karate. We were taught to never, never, never take your eyes off the person you bow to. Maybe this comes from a basic distrust of Okinawans for Japanese, I don't know. In 12 years of Aikido no one has ever indicated to me that the practice is rude, but maybe they were so insulted they couldn't talk. And all these years I thought my ukes just liked to train hard, maybe they were all ticked off at me for looking at them when I bowed. From: Eric Harrell ----------------------------------------------------- As I was taught by my sensei, a proper bow is both simple and difficult and in any case very important. We are taught that the head remains erect and the eyes straight forward in the head throughout the bow. The natural consequence then of bowing forward is that the eyes point to the ground as you bend at the waist. If you are relaxed and centered, your peripheral vision should let you see all that you need. The bow is deeper (i.e. forehead closer to the ground) or less deep depending on the context (kohai, sempai, sensei, Sensei, Shihan, etc. - or "God that was a great throw, please oh please bust my chops ONE MORE TIME!!") -- To bend the head forward so that you expose the back of your neck and look between your legs would I think be akin to a "wet-noodle" handshake. To bend your head back and/or look up at the person to whom you are bowing might be considered arrogant, untrusting, or a challenge. From: doug johnson ------------------------------------------- What I have always done, which began in Karate, is always keep my eyes on whomever or whatever I am bowing to, especially if I am bowing to another person. I was taught in Karate (how applicable this is I'm not sure) to never, never take your eyes from someone when you bow because you become vulnerable to attack. I suppose if you are bowing to a sensei or sempai maybe it is rude to keep looking at them.....but you never know they might try to whack you for looking away. No one has ever done that to me in Aikido....they did in Karate so the lesson was painfully learnt so I keep it up. From: Larry Novick ----------------------------------- Years ago when I was studying Hapkido with Bong Soo Han, he used to say - bow fully and look down while you do, as a sign of respect. If you don't trust the person such that you have to look at them while you bow, you shouldn't be bowing to them! From: Jeff Frane -------------------------------------- There is also a question of maai in bowing. If you are too close (coconuts!), your peripheral vision is useless. But at the correct distance you can keep an eye on your partner's *hands* (which are pretty critical in an attack). Just because you're being polite, doesn't mean you're not paying attention! From: Cady Goldfield -------------------------------------------- Don't know whether this will be relevant to aikido, regarding "rei" etiquette, but my taekwondo teacher always told us to bow looking down (actually, keeping the head and neck straight and aligned with the back, bowing from the waist) when bowing to teachers and seniors. But, when bowing before kumite (sparring), keep your eyes on the opponent. This was done by "straining" the eyeballs upward to view the opponent, while still maintaining the formal bow position mentioned above. From: Ralph Ray Craig --------------------------------------------- >I think the idea that you look up when you bow came from the old >Bruce Lee movies. Specifically, Enter the Dragon. A student bows to Bruce and he smacks the student upside the head and tells him not to trust the person he is bowing to. Personally, my senseis always said that if you don't trust the guy, don't bow to him! From: "Kerry S. Nash" ---------------------------------------------- It just happens that my Kenshu class last night concerned rei and it was discussed for several minutes. The "proper" positioning of the eyes is to look at the ground when bowing to your partner. This is to convey a show of trust and respect for the person you are bowing to. If you must keep your eyes on the person you are bowing to it shows that you don't trust them and expect them to do something should you let your guard down. This still holds true for current Japanese custom. Where I work we get several tours of Japenese automakers and I watched as they bow and they do lower their eyes to the floor when bowing. From: Dave Collier -------------------------------------------- As I have been taught, in aikido we bow with our eyes lowered to the floor, not locked on the opponent, in order to show our respect and trust and willingness to avert confrontation. From: Dariusz Kominek ---------------------------------------------- When we bow in our Aikido classe we ALWAYS look at our _partners_, but if we happen to be in any situation where we are bowing to the person teaching, or someone with a high rank who has just _corrected us_ etc., we bow with our forehead pointed to the floor. Ie. We do not maintain eye contact, nor do we "watch" the other person. >From what I have been told, both of these bows have to do with respect. In the first instance we show that we have respect for the other person's "ability"...ie. we don't think that we are soooo good (relative to the other) that we don't even have to keep our guard since the other person does not pose a threat (Or something along those lines). This makes sense to me since it does three things: 1. Does not be-little the other person. 2. Keeps the honest people honest. 3. Indirectly, shows that we know enough to take the situation seriously. That we are aware of the consequences of not keeping one's guard up. Details, details....how much they say about us! In the second situation, we show our respect + _trust_ to the one from whom we are receiving instruction. This is taken quite seriously at our dojo. The teacher (especially one that is visiting) has taken the time to share some of his knowledge with us, we make sure that we show him our gratitude! Also, the bow of the student to the teacher is always DEEPER and LONGER. This is just a further sign of respect + trust. This is not done to an extreme: I go just an inch or two lower than the teacher and stay there for that 1/2 to 1 second longer after he starts comming up. Having talked with some of the higher belts in our dojo, I have heard of stories where they did not bow long enough to a high ranking Japanese teacher who was visiting our dojo and got lightly "cuffed" on the head for comming up before he did. NOTE: This does not mean that we bow to the guy, and he just sits there as long as he wants just to make us bow...the CORE of this entire exercise still revolves around mutual respect. ONE MORE POINT: When we have a higher ranking PARTNER, we bow to them as we would to any other student. The way I would explain this is: When dealing with a person with whom you are entering the "contract" of uke/nage, you watch them. ******************************************************************************* 2. ALTERNATIVE BOWING ======================= From: Marc St_Onge ----------------------------------------------- Sometimes in seminars, after being shown something by the instructor, we bow to the instructor who then presses their thumb to the mat while squatting. I just assumed this was a high level form of acknowledgement of their receipt of our bow (or something like that). Is there another interpretation of this gesture? I seem to recall seeing it in the movie "Shogun". From: kannagara ------------------------------------ I've also seen instructors who only bows with one hand on the mat and not bend very much at all from the waist, almost like they were not bowing at From: Doug Pettigrew ------------------------------------------ Would that be the left hand on the mat? Leaving the sword hand free? Just guessing. From: Larry Novick ----------------------------------- This is a typical way that a sensei, shihan, or anyone of a particular rank or temperament can show, through their bow, that they are "higher" than those that are bowing to them, if they choose to do so. Years ago Seagal used to bow this way when he ended his Aikido class - I don't know if he still does. From: Terry Roberts ----------------------------------------- I've also seen it done by sensei who I don't think would play such games, but who had recent back problems that made getting down and up difficult. As always, there are multiple possible explanations, and one must look at the people and situation to interpret it. From: Krystal Locke ------------------------------------------- I have seen almost all the Sensei who've taught seminars perform this touch the mat with one hand kind of semi-perfunctory bow thingy. I have to partially agree with Terry, here, and add, beyond the possible back and knee problems, that they may also do this to save everybody a little time? Just a way too early in the AM thought... From: Terry Roberts -------------------------------------- Yeah. The situation where I've seen it most is when the instructor at a seminar is going around the class while people are practicing, and the instructor does the technique on one of the students. Typically, at the end of such a session, the instructor is standing, uke has just fallen, and uke's partner is in seiza nearby. It's easy for the students to do a seated bow from their current position. But it would be more awkward and more time-consuming for the instructor to get all the way down. Touching the mat seems to be a respectful compromise -- it's certainly more formal than just doing a standing bow. And it gets the instructor moving on to the next set of students quickly. From: Jeff Frane ---------------------------------------- A number of years ago, we had a visiting instructor from Japan, 6th dan. We were overwhelmed, and everyone in the dojo was going out of his/her way to be as polite as possible (actually, he was a very easy-going fellow and made no demands at all). So whenever he came around the dojo during class to demonstrate something, we would drop down into seiza and give him a full, seated bow to show how polite and very Japanese we all were. So, *he* would drop down into seiza and return the bow, because he was very polite, and eventually we realized that all our unnatural politeness was making him do a lot of extra work. So we stuck to standing bows, he returned standing bows, and everyone got a lot more done during class.